Round and Round and Round We Go...
Ya know, I've got this assignment at the office right now that's driving me absolutely batty. It involves two areas of law that are related, but for the purposes of my case, they are not actually connected. The problem is, one side wants to say the two ARE connected, and the other wants to say they AREN'T.
My job? Find some case/statutory law that says who's right.
My problem? There doesn't appear to be any!
The result? Legal Area X and Legal Area Y each contain Provision Z. I find lots of info about how Action X.Z works and info about how Action Y.Z works, but nothing that suggests that Action X.Z would be valid under Legal Area Y, or that Action Y.Z would be valid under Legal Area X.
See my difficulty? ARRRGH! Now you might reply, "Well, then, I guess you can't DO Action X.Z and say that applies to Legal Area Y or vice versa!"
Man, I wish it were that simple. The problem is, X and Y are SO closely related that just because a specific case or law doesn't SAY you can do Y.Z for X or X.Z for Y doesn't mean a judge won't rule that you can.
On The Great Fanfiction Debate...
I was just musing on how this relates to the back-forth-back-forth, knock-down-drag-out, take-no-prisoners debate that's been raging all day on Lee's blog. And I got to thinking: the difficulty we're all up against is a similar problem.
It's a question of defining the issues again.
The questions involve the definition of creativity, the definition of originality, and the definition of writing.
What is writing?
What is creativity and/or originality?
And how much of the two latter do you need to equal the former?
On The Definition Of Writing...
They Say: (essentially) Real writing involves creativity and originality and because fanfiction uses other people's ideas, it's not original or creative.
I/We Say: (fanwriters) Real writing involves putting words and/or ideas on paper, and you can still be original and creative while using other ideas as a starting point.
On The Definition of Original/Creative...
They Say: (essentially) You invent your own characters/worlds/plots from scratch is required for creativity/originality.
I/We Say: Taking another idea/source and elaborating on it or altering it/taking it in a new direction, or interpreting it differently is still creative and still makes something original.
SO...is interpretation creative, or is it another action separate from writing? What about adaptation/elaboration?
Round and round and round we go...
Oh, and to all the anti-fanfiction crowd, please feel free to correct my interpretation of your positions. I feel rather badly for my lack of manners in the previous discussions, and hope to reinstate common courtesy.
But overall, what do you think? Have I summed up our difficulty?
My job? Find some case/statutory law that says who's right.
My problem? There doesn't appear to be any!
The result? Legal Area X and Legal Area Y each contain Provision Z. I find lots of info about how Action X.Z works and info about how Action Y.Z works, but nothing that suggests that Action X.Z would be valid under Legal Area Y, or that Action Y.Z would be valid under Legal Area X.
See my difficulty? ARRRGH! Now you might reply, "Well, then, I guess you can't DO Action X.Z and say that applies to Legal Area Y or vice versa!"
Man, I wish it were that simple. The problem is, X and Y are SO closely related that just because a specific case or law doesn't SAY you can do Y.Z for X or X.Z for Y doesn't mean a judge won't rule that you can.
On The Great Fanfiction Debate...
I was just musing on how this relates to the back-forth-back-forth, knock-down-drag-out, take-no-prisoners debate that's been raging all day on Lee's blog. And I got to thinking: the difficulty we're all up against is a similar problem.
It's a question of defining the issues again.
The questions involve the definition of creativity, the definition of originality, and the definition of writing.
What is writing?
What is creativity and/or originality?
And how much of the two latter do you need to equal the former?
On The Definition Of Writing...
They Say: (essentially) Real writing involves creativity and originality and because fanfiction uses other people's ideas, it's not original or creative.
I/We Say: (fanwriters) Real writing involves putting words and/or ideas on paper, and you can still be original and creative while using other ideas as a starting point.
On The Definition of Original/Creative...
They Say: (essentially) You invent your own characters/worlds/plots from scratch is required for creativity/originality.
I/We Say: Taking another idea/source and elaborating on it or altering it/taking it in a new direction, or interpreting it differently is still creative and still makes something original.
SO...is interpretation creative, or is it another action separate from writing? What about adaptation/elaboration?
Round and round and round we go...
Oh, and to all the anti-fanfiction crowd, please feel free to correct my interpretation of your positions. I feel rather badly for my lack of manners in the previous discussions, and hope to reinstate common courtesy.
But overall, what do you think? Have I summed up our difficulty?
posted by Jocelyn Smith | 4:52 PM
23 Comments:
I just don't see why they can't write the stuff without making all the little kiddies have sex.
I dunno, I don't speak for "them." I speak for fanfiction as a general activity, not the particularly perverted fringe element.
Also don't see why they think it's okay for them to decide what my kid views.
I don't know any fanwriter that thinks that. I think (and most fanwriters I know agree) it's up to you to decide what your kid views.
Is that Mal Chit a friend of yours by chance, Jocelyn? Not saying you sound alike at all. Just wondered. Cause she's annoying as hell and I'd hate to insult a friend of yours on your blog.
Nope, I never knew of Mal until today's round over on Lee's blog.
Be fair, Jocelyn. They ain't the particularly perverted fringe. They ain't the fringe at all.
Yes, kiddie porn writers are the fringe. I know that it seems like they're everywhere, but if you look at the number of stories in any given fandom, even a kid-oriented one like Harry Potter or anime, the majority are not pornographic.
(The majority are most definitely BAD, but that's a different issue.)
And I think every time a fanfic author archives a story and refuses to make sure inappropriate material is out of safesearch, they make that decision for me.
What is safesearch?
I'm not certain (or particularly web-savvy, beyond the art of uploading a fic to an archive) but I gather what you're saying is that by the mere act of posting a story on a generic archive, the fanwriter is "making the decision for you."
I disagree to a point. I DO think writers of graphic material, be it violence or sexual, should post very clear warnings that a web-surfer can't miss before getting into the story--ie, a pop-up warning when you try to enter the text.
I also think archives that mix graphic material and "gen" material should keep them entirely separate, with similar warnings before you enter the "restricted section" so to speak.
But I don't think that once they've done that, they're still responsible for everyone else's children. There is still a responsibility to the parents to police what their children mess with on the web. If your child is surfing unsupervised long enough to enter an archive, click past all the warnings, and get into a nasty story, you should rethink the web privileges you allow that child.
If the child "stumbles" onto a nasty story, I agree, the writer needs to take some technical steps to make sure that doesn't happen.
Okay, this is past getting old.
Yes, there's some HP out there where the kids are way underaged. Most of that is on Nifty.org, which is not really a fanfiction site. The other stuff is being written by people who are themselves underaged--and it shows, believe me.
For the rest of us who write adult HP fic, it's exactly that: adult. Either we're writing about the adult characters, or we state in the fic headers that the characters are at least 16...which brings up another point: for fic set during Half-Blood Prince or later, Harry, Ron, Hermione and co. are all 16. In the previous book, the "little kiddies" started dating--does that mean that JKR is now part of the "perverted fringe element"?
I don't know of a single HP fic archive that includes adult material and doesn't warn accordingly. If your kids click on the "Yes, I'm 18 or over" button when they're not, then you need to sit down and have a talk with them. That's your problem, not mine.
Okay, this post shall be long, but I shall respond to all the assorted questions. Bear with me.
Ze slime shouldn't be in the playground anyway, Jocelyn. That's all I'm saying. What we're all saying. Save the nasty fic for Stargate or X-files or whatever else is out there. Leave the kiddies their playgrounds. Then there's no need for 'appropriate warnings' and 'splash pages'.
For the most part, I completely agree. If I hosted a fanfic archive, I wouldn't allow pornfic in it. But until a law gets passed dictating exactly what kind of written material is allowed where on the web, I neither have the authority, the ability, or (I will say it) the responsibility of dictating what everybody else posts. Although I have been known to send very nasty emails to pornfic writers in kiddie fandoms.
What percentage would you consider 'fringe'?
Oh...depends on the fandom. HP, I'd imagine the kiddie pornfic makes up about 10 to 15%, but that's because the fandom is so large. Other kid-oriented fandoms, much smaller, but HP is the only one I know well.
But what if the fanwriter *doesn't* take the steps to keep very graphic fic from a young audience.
What if, in fact, they are pimping their stories and encouraging *anyone* to read their work?
Then I quite agree, there ought to be something to be done. And there is: you can contact the archive owner, or the site owner, or the ISP. And I, along with many other members of the fandoms, have done that on occasion when we see a fic that crosses the line.
What if an author of (say) HP porn is not much more than a child his/her self and certain older writers are well aware of this fact and are drawn to these younger and more vunerable writers?
From what statistical data exists, that doesn't seem to be the case: most smut fanwriters are adults.
Hey, Jocelyn. Guy name of Jason just put this up at LG's blog:
"Only the owner of copyright in a work has the right to prepare, or to authorize someone else to create, a new version of that work.
Hiya, Raven, nice to meet you. That is, for the most part, the text of the Copyright Law, but more recent additions to the law and the way the courts have interpreted it allow for certain uses of copyrighted work that don't violate copyright: for example, parodies. It's called "fair use," and includes things like criticism, commentary, educational, research, and generally anytime you use a work for nonprofit purposes, you can at least raise a fair use argument.
That's the argument fanfiction proponents are raising.
Hope I didn't miss anyone! Don't be strangers!
Then why be here to discuss it, Darkrose? This is Jocelyn's blog and we don't want it to erupt into a flame war. If it doesn't interest you, why do you care? If we're too ridiculous to even discuss it with, why bother? Same for you Jules. Go back to FW and giggle about how silly we are and what lousy parents we are there. Or we'll set up a separate blog where you can rant at us there. We'll call it 'Idiotic Parents Who Don't Like Us Writing Porn About Kid Characters'. Then you can have at it all you want.
I have work to do today.
Easy now. I have no objection to people ranting at me because they disagree--I'd be quite the hypocrite if I did, given the amount of time I spent on Lee's blog!
They're rants at us. Or indirect rants at us. For whatever reason. Taking over your blog to let them do that isn't what we're about. Sorry, I got huffy. Merilee. Back to work.
Just wandering in to say any time you want to write a fanfic story about one of my characters/books, please feel free. Just try not to be too much more articulate and interesting than the original, okay?
Kate Rothwell/Summer Devon
Just wandering in to say any time you want to write a fanfic story about one of my characters/books, please feel free. Just try not to be too much more articulate and interesting than the original, okay?
You...write...historical...fiction?
And FANTASY!?!?!?!?!
(SWOON!)
(Recovers from swoon and scrapes and bows) My dear lady, you better be careful--I may take you up on that!
You shall be seeing me on your blog in the future, I promise you. I've been dying to hook up online with some fantasy/historical fiction authors, as much as I enjoy duking it out with the crime/mystery writers, since historical fiction/romance is my genre of choice, and the genre of my first novel-in-progress. I shall probably be nagging you endlessly for advice.
Most delighted and honored to make your acquaintance!
"Pornography has no place in a fandom about a children's book - that includes Harry Potter and Chronicles of Narnia."
How do you define 'pornography'? If you mean by 'any sex at all' then I'll have to respectfully disagree. I see nothing wrong with a love story that contains sexuality if it is relevant to the plot. Especially when the characters in question will be sixteen soon, and (as in the case with Narnia) were adults in at least two books in the series. As for hardcore smut? Meh. I don't like, don't get it, don't read it, and have never had a problem. I'm not about to judge what others write.
"It's interesting to us that of all the thought-provoking and edgy writing CS Lewis did for adults, the only stuff of his we can find fanfic about, and most of it pornographic is Narnia. That tells us something about the mentality of the people who write it."
All it tells us is that it is his most well known and popular work. It stands to reason that the fandom is bigger, and inspires a wider variety of fanfic, including 'pornographic' fic.
Then why be here to discuss it, Darkrose? This is Jocelyn's blog and we don't want it to erupt into a flame war. If it doesn't interest you, why do you care? If we're too ridiculous to even discuss it with, why bother? Same for you Jules. Go back to FW and giggle about how silly we are and what lousy parents we are there. Or we'll set up a separate blog where you can rant at us there. We'll call it 'Idiotic Parents Who Don't Like Us Writing Porn About Kid Characters'.
I'm getting the impression that you didn't actually read what I said. If you don't want your kids reading HP smut, that's perfectly reasonable. And I also think it's reasonable to expect that fan authors will take steps to make it clear who their material is intended for.
However, as I also pointed out, more than half of the HP NC-17 is about characters who are themselves adults. Going forward in canon, all HP fic will be about characters who are of legal age, because the characters age throughout the series. I don't agree with your contention that the Potter books are exclusively, or even primarily, for children.
And I never said that the discussion doesn't interest me. I said that I'm tired of seeing wild speculations about the motives of those of us who write adult HP fic. Why do I write Snape/Lucius porn? Because Alan Rickman and Jason Isaacs are incredibly hot in character. I don't have a problem with your not wanting your kids to read what I write. I have a big problem with you telling me that I can't write it.
Why don't you ask JKR how she defines it? Then fanwriters who respect her work will know for sure what her parameters are.
I don't suppose you have her number in your rolodex, by any chance? Until she publically says otherwise I'm going to assume that sex doesn't automatically equal pornography.
Figure a way to contact her yourself. You're the one writing questionable material against her express wishes. Try Scholastic Books, or Warner Brothers.
How convenient, your assumption.
I don't write questionable material against her express wishes. I don't write fanfic at all, I've no talent for writing. I don't object to your saying that porn has no place in 'kiddie literature'; what I object to is the blanket assumption that all sexual situations = evil, filthy porn. Especially if the sexual situations occur between adult characters or between adolescents who are at an age when most of us begin to explore our sexuality.
The Harry Potter series deals with many 'adult' issues such as death, genocide, fanaticism, etc. I see no reason why sex is the only thing that is too taboo.
She defines it as a children's series. It's sold in the children's section of the bookstore, marketed through Scholastic Books which generally sells through schools. Listed under children's fantasy at Amazon.com.
There are specific editions with more "grownup" covers, marketed to adults who want to read the books but are afraid of looking silly. More importantly, Rowling has said from the very beginning that she was not deliberately setting out to write a children's book--that she wrote something that she would want to read. In fact, she said when Goblet of Fire came out that she wasn't sure parents should let their kids read it, because it might be too scary.
JKR doesn't want you to write the pornography. Does that mean anything to you? She doesn't mind fanfic, finds it wonderfully creative. Her universe, her prerogative. She doesn't want you writing the porn. have you a problem with that?
I haven't actually seen where she has said that she doesn't want anyone to write porn in her universe. I saw a copy of the original C&D that was sent to the Restricted Section website. It specifically referenced the fact that at the time, the material on the site was easy to access, even though there were warnings.
Further, Warner Brothers does know about Fiction Alley, which doesn't allow NC-17, but does allow R-rated stories. Again, my impression has always been that the primary concern was over kids getting access to the smut.
All that aside, these days I'm writing mostly RPS, so you'll just have use the "invasion of privacy" or "RPS is tantamount to rape" argument with me.
So the definition of a writer (they say) is somebody who makes up their own characters and only writes about them, right?
Well then, by that definition, somebody who writes for a TV show isn't a writer. Only the person who created those characters and wrote the scripts would be a writer.
By that definition, the only difference between a fanfic author and a staff writer is that the staff writers are authorized to write about them and are getting payed.
Yes, there are a lot of bad stories out there. And I wouldn't call every fanfiction author a 'writer'. But there are some amazingly talented people out there. People, whose stories could have been on the screen and you wouldn't know the difference.
And i would advise the 'professional writers' to put the fanfic authors down so much.
They are a *huge* part of fandom. In some cases they *are* the fandom.
You want to keep you fans? Play nice.
I understand the problem with copyright issues.
But there's a difference with criticising people because they make unauthorized use of characters - and mocking them for writing in the first place.
For clarity's sake and to satisfy Ignatius' curiosity:
1) Fandom Jam is not run by the Fanfic Savvy's, though they do work with us now. The original Fandom Jam was around long before the Savvy's ever hit the scene.
2) The links do not work because trolls forced their deletion. However, the blog itself is archived.
3) Fandom Jam moves around a lot because, well...see number 2.
4) Fandom Jam would like nothing more than to discuss things with folks, but we're prevented because of well...number 2.
5) Fandom Jam is a lot bigger and more effective (in a behind the scenes sort of way) because of well, number 2, which tossed about four divergent groups together in a weird sort of accidental way. Actually five groups.
6) So, in that sense Fandom Jam had a run in with Fandom Wank, but really, it was the parents who had the run-in with Fandom Wank, an event we thank the powers that be for everyday, because, well, actually, they didn't understand just how bad it could get.
And no. Claire's not our spokesperson. But she is well-spoken and little phases her. I wouldn't engage her in a war of words. But that's just me.
SH1
First off,
Claire, thanks for keeping me posted. I shall be around.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, FOR THE RECORD...
I have no objection to vigorous debate or even a bit of wanking, heaven knows I've done enough myself. I am pro-fanfic, as you undoubtedly know, but as I express that opinion on the blog of anti-fanfic people, I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't allow them to express their opinions here.
With that in mind, please simply allow everyone to say what they think and remember that all opinions are welcome.
Thank you, Fandom Jam. I didn't originally follow the wank that fanfic savvy was involved in, so this was the first I've heard of you. And I guess I just got confused, as claire's name linked to your journal in the comments over on Mr. Goldberg's blog.
And thank you for being a gracious hostess, Jocelyn. I know a lot of people don't like their blogs posted to f_w, in any capacity, but I found the comment on Narnia fanfic entertaining, and knew others would as well.
-Ignatius
We all use the Fandom Jam Blog as our reference point if we post over there, or elsewhere on this topic, though we rarely post elsewhere. Claire's not Claire anymore than there is an actual singing group call Shaking Heads.
Somewhere along the way somebody accused Claire of trying to win points with Mr. Goldberg for her own career. A hoot because she'd never tell him who she is. None of us can.
Shaking Heads exists, but we're not the Shaking Heads. We took on that name as a joke when we put up that first song about the Slime and the Coconuts. It stuck.
The Legions aren't the Legions, they're really a group called something completely different. Some of the people here use their real first names and some use assumed. But you won't find those handles used elsewhere on the internet. It's strictly for Fandom Jam.
As much as we might know about fandom and the people in it, it's not our interest to cause anybody trouble in their personal or professional lives. We just hope to make people think, reconsider what they write, take responsibility. Failing that, we've other avenues. Our focus is pretty narrow. On the whole, we're a pretty nice group. Just we piss people off. Can't help it.
Jocelyn is a gracious hostess, but we worry one of the nutjobs who follow us around will give her trouble.
SH2
And thank you for being a gracious hostess, Jocelyn. I know a lot of people don't like their blogs posted to f_w, in any capacity, but I found the comment on Narnia fanfic entertaining, and knew others would as well.
Not at all, not at all.
You will find that I have a very thick skin, although as my most recent post shows, I do get fed up occasionally.
However, I was quite amused to find myself named on Fandom_Wank. "I have arrived!"
Jocelyn is a gracious hostess, but we worry one of the nutjobs who follow us around will give her trouble.
You need not worry. Having worked in both politics and law, I'm not afraid of much, and if any nutjobs do attempt to take this academic spat into the Real World, let's just say there are certain advantages to working for law firms and knowing people in politics. Not to brag, and I would not use such contacts unless I felt I or anyone else was in danger--but if I felt a line had been crossed, believe that I would pull out all the stops.
I prefer to walk softly, speak loudly, and carry a really big stick on top of all that. Do not be fooled by my "can't we all just get along" mantras.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Not to brag, and I would not use such contacts unless I felt I or anyone else was in danger--but if I felt a line had been crossed, believe that I would pull out all the stops.
We feel the same way. Came damn close once or twice. It especially pisses us off when we find ourselves going to bat for somebody on the 'other side'. Unfortunately, most people don't get what we're trying to do and we end up getting hollered at.
Like the Narnia comment, perfectly reasonable comment, hardly wanky. A part of us says, fine keep on writing it, you make it easy when we point people to it, the other part of us says, 'Look dip, just go write it about the adult books and you'd never hear from us again.'
But that's when we really do believe we're dealing with a paraphilia of some sort, because it makes no sense. No sense whatsoever. Narnia is a very nice series of books, but in no way has the depth or breadth of Lewis' adult works. So, we think we're talking to a teenager, find out the person is 42 and start getting really nervous. We find out what the person does for a living and we get even more nervous.
The day the trailer for the movie came out, one of us made some crack about people slashing the moppets and I wanted to puke. Pointed one person to a work and she said to me. 'I'm not reading Narnia porn. I'll take your word for it. Give me the link. I'm just not going to read it.'
Dear Claire:
JKR once said, "There are two books whose final lines make me cry without fail, irrespective of how many times I read them, and one is Lolita. There is so much I could say about this book. There just isn't enough time to discuss how a plot that could have been the most worthless pornography becomes, in Nabakov's hands, a great and tragic love story, and I could exhaust my reservoir of superlatives trying to describe the quality of the writing." That's from "How Lolita inspired Harry Potter," Sarah-Kate Templeton, The Sunday Herald, 21 May 2000.
Furthermore, if you look to the cease & desist letter sent by her agent's lawyers to RestrictedSection.org, which, as you can note, is still online and still filled with NC-17 fics, they did say that sexually explicit fics were a matter of serious concern, as they were accessable by kids under 17. But once it was no longer easily accessable by kids under 17, they ceased complaining about it, even though they had the legal right to do so. Does that possibly imply that their concern was the access of kids to the stories, not the contents of the stories themselves?
Have a nice day.
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